Tell Me What You Think (UPDATED)

Alright. I know there are some Operation Iraqi Freedom veterans that read this blog; and a few who are reading from in-theater. Tell me, gentlemen and ladies; how realistic does this sound to you?

[OIF vet and conscientious objector Aidan Delgado] said: "Guys in my unit, particularly the younger guys, would drive by in their Humvee and shatter bottles over the heads of Iraqi civilians passing by. They'd keep a bunch of empty Coke bottles in the Humvee to break over people's heads."

Does Coca Cola still use glass bottles? (Perhaps it’s an overseas practice.)

What about this?

Mr. Delgado said he had witnessed incidents in which an Army sergeant lashed a group of children with a steel Humvee antenna, and a Marine corporal planted a vicious kick in the chest of a kid about 6 years old. [SNIP]

Mr. Delgado, an extremely thoughtful and serious young man, balked at the entire scene. "It drove me into a moral quagmire," he said. "I walked up to my commander and gave him my weapon. I said: 'I'm not going to fight. I'm not going to kill anyone. This war is wrong. I'll stay. I'll finish my job as a mechanic. But I'm not going to hurt anyone. And I want to be processed as a conscientious objector.' " [SNIP]

Mr. Delgado, who eventually got conscientious objector status and was honorably discharged last January, recalled a disturbance that occurred while he was working in the Abu Ghraib motor pool. Detainees who had been demonstrating over a variety of grievances began throwing rocks at the guards. As the disturbance grew, the Army authorized lethal force. Four detainees were shot to death.

Mr. Delgado confronted a sergeant who, he said, had fired on the detainees. "I asked him," said Mr. Delgado, "if he was proud that he had shot unarmed men behind barbed wire for throwing stones. He didn't get mad at all. He was, like, 'Well, I saw them bloody my buddy's nose, so I knelt down. I said a prayer. I stood up, and I shot them down.' "

I wonder about the veracity or the completeness of these incidents that Delgado is transmitting via columnist Bob Herbert—who has gotten things willfully wrong before. Oh, not merely because the incidents don’t sound like the behavior of the average American GI, but also because such widespread behavior would be impossible to keep secret and it's hard to believe that it would go unpunished. We have soldiers armed with digital cameras and email. We have imbedded journalists, some of whom would be only too eager to get a hold of the types of stories that Mr. Delgado tells; journalists with the same mindset as Mr. Herbert.

(An aside: Mr. Delgado enlisted in the Army on a rather interesting morning: September 11, 2001, probably doing so just as one of the airplanes was hitting its target or as one of the towers fell. They tell me God is the Great Comedian.)

But let’s assume Mr. Delgado is telling the truth. He does not mention to Mr. Herbert whether such soldiers are punished or not. Perhaps he doesn’t know. Or perhaps he does, but chooses not to mention it.

One thing is for certain: Mr. Delgado knew he’d have a receptive audience in Mr. Herbert. The latter’s disdain for the military and for OIF is palpable.

He stayed with his unit and endured a fair amount of ostracism. "People would say I was a traitor or a coward," he said. "The stuff you would expect."

Perhaps Mr. Herbert would expect it, but those who are familiar with military culture would think it rings false. However, I’m open to correction.

So, GIs, tell me. What do you think of these stories?

UPDATE: More from BlackFive and from Lorie Byrd at Polipundit. Both are skeptical of Mr. Delgado's stories and wonder what he might have to gain by telling them.

UPDATE: Rich Lowry at the Corner notes an interesting discrepancy between two of Delgado's tellings of the same story; as told to Amy Goodman and Juan Gonzalez of Democracy Now. Compare this to what he told Bob Herbert.

And I remember just sort of questioning the guy, saying, “Do you really feel proud of having shot an unarmed man who threw a stone?” He was like, “Well, I'm doing my job.” It was a very machismo thing, to have killed someone. I felt this immense loathing and this immense disgust for the whole incident.

(Thanks to Michelle Malkin)

UPDATE: Blackfive sends a link to a Milblogger, Sgt Ted, who was also present at Abu Ghraib during the events detailed by Aidan Delgado. Sgt Ted, however, isn't a mechanic.

The compound where the riot took place, compound 8, was run by my Company, the 870th MP [Military Police] Co. The riot also was an escape attempt. It wasn't just a few stone throwers; the sky was black with throw debris, which effectively suppressed the compound towers from their overwatch duties. The stones being thrown represented a deadly force threat. Some of them were head size. It was only when the riot became a danger of a serious breakout attempt and less than lethal force(rubber shot from M203 and rubber point munitions from 12 GA shotguns) had been applied to no effect was the request for deadly force made. When permission was granted, two soldiers fired on the ring leaders. 3 were killed outright, ending the riot immediately. One more died later and 12 more were wounded. I know both of the soldiers who fired; they are good people and only did what they had to do to keep others from further harm. Given that one of the soldiers was using a M249, it could have been a bloodbath. [SNIP]

This Delgado guy was a mechanic; he was no where near those compounds. I also highly doubt he "confronted" the SGT who fired; he wouldn't have even known who he was. Different unit, not working anywhere near the compounds.

Hmm, who to believe? (snark)

Comments

[Mustang 23]

Sounds like some good fiction to me.

If these stories were true, everybody he is describing would have been punished under UCMJ. We don't toy around with people how hit kids with glass bottles.

BTW: Yes, you do have readers who are in Iraq. (Me) keep up the good work.

[tad]

Get a glass coke bottle (pretty sturdy item) and try and break in on ANYTHING that isn't really hard. Further, where did soldiers get them? I believe that Coca-Cola may still "do" bottles internationally, but not much (if at all) in US. I've seen drunks break beer bottles on tables and things, but often the guy with the bottle gets his own hand bloodied. Sounds bogus to me.

[Iron Mike]

The only thing close I saw was when some of the young Rangers would throw their spit bottles (plastic water bottles filled with tobacco juice, for those of you who don't know what I'm talking about) to young kids, then laugh when the kids tried to drink it.

Needless to say, I put a stop to that immediately.

[Steve]

Notice the melodrama. Sure indication of a lier (he put "prayer" in there for certain of his own purposes you can imagine):

He didn't get mad at all. He was, like, 'Well, I saw them bloody my buddy's nose, so I knelt down. I said a prayer. I stood up, and I shot them down.' "

Glass pop bottles from a moving vehicle to the head of bystanders would probaby mean death to about 1/2 to 4/5 of those people. Kind of don't think so.

As for the guys throwing tobacco juice bottles. I hope they understand that the future of your children hangs on most every behavior you publically display in Iraq. Some of them can't get that into their heads. I work with the public a lot and its obvious with some people these concepts just aren't capable of forming in that thing even they are able to identify as their "head" as they even know to call it themselves.

I am thinking also that whatever bad behavior is being comitted in Iraq is likely being carried out by people with negative attitudes who know nothing and wish to nothing of the reasons we are in Iraq. People much like Delgado himself. I get a feeling that he is secretly pleased if he should see anything that he can tell about, not just including the lies he makes up. I think we all can imagine the type. I see them in the civilian world as well.

[Noble Eagle]

His story smells like BS to me. Not sure about the glass bottles part, but Camp As Sayliyah in Qatar had plastic bottles in the PX (most soda was sold in cans that were locally purchased). I'd assume that the exchanges in Iraq would be similarly supplied since they're all run by AAFES. Soda in the chow hall was in aluminum cans.

As for the rest of it, I think it just makes for a less sorry-a$$ story than "I was afraid and changed my mind about being a soldier and I want to go home."

I'm still puzzled about how you can be a conscientious objector in an all-volunteer military.

[GMRoper]

Delgado's story is on par with the Christmas in Cambodia story that was "Seared ... seared" in a certain Senator's memory! And as truthful perhaps?

[Steve in Boston]

Its been a long while since I was active (got out in '91 after GW1), and I was a sailor, not a soldier.

With that being said, the worst behavior I ever saw was when guys would throw handfulls of change into the ever present crowds of kids, just to see them fight over it.

The ones doing it were no more than kids themselves, however. When they got caught doing it, they immediately had liberty removed, and would face the old man at Captain's Mast. They rarely did it again. Those that did, typically were NJP'd out eventually, due to other serious personality issues, anyways.

Things change, of course, but I don't think they would change so much that whipping kids with antennas, kicking them, and other criminal things such as that would go both unnoticed AND unpunished.

The American in me, says this can't be true, but I'm willing to concede that there may be truth, in part, but truth mixed with lies and innuendo, is not really truth, IMHO.

I was in Iraq for nearly a year. I don't think I ever saw a single glass soda bottle. The Iraqis use cans overwhelmingly, and Brown and Root was trucking in cans, not bottles, because cans are much, much easier for the logistics system to store.

Ditto water bottles.

[mklutra]

The abuses at Abu Gharib also did not happen either. All those photos were Photoshopped. Anyone who says different is a liar and hates America. Long live Dear Leader Bush!!!!!!!!!!

[baldilocks]

mklutra: I've seen your comments around the neighborhood, so I'm not surprised by the nature of this one. Welcome.

[Marty]

Wow- the NY Times ran a negative story about the post war peacekeeping in Iraq?

I can't imagine....

[baldilocks]

Marty: Hard to believe, no? ;-)

[tree hugging sister]

As an active duty Marine in the days when you could still look forward to a det to Olongapao PI (those would be my 3d world props), I never saw our Jarheads do anything like that. Can't even imagine such a thing. There'd be the one that would routinely f*ck (try to get whatever he was selling for cheaper, tease him with pesos in a fist, stuff like that) with the street urchins, but he'd square it away or be shamed by his buddies and they'd all try to make it right with the kid before wandering further down the street. Alot of kids came looking for attention, because there was always something in it for them at the end. Then again, I've never seen anything as revolting as Lyndsey England, right?

[Marty]

By the way- when I went to Nigeria last year, we drank Coke out of glass bottles. Coke also sells 7 oz. bottles in their commerative Christmas six packs here in the States. One (more) problem in that storythough - have you ever tried to break a glass Coke bottle?

An attempt to break a Coke bottle on the head of any human would probably kill the person before the bottle ever broke.

Sorry, folks but those bottles smashing over the heads of the fighting patrons in your favorite western were made of special shattering glass designed for the film making. In real life you'd have a lot of dead patrons.

I ain't buyin' Delgado's tale.

[liz]

I'm a middle-aged lady, I've never been in uniform, I opposed the current adventure in Iraq--

and this story reeks of made-up hyperbole from a kid. It reeks of scenes from movies, not real life.

The reporter should have known better, and should have ventured to a liquor store to purchase a glass bottle (beer would do) and see how easy it was to bust over a head.

The reporter should have researched the can vs. glass question (as far as availability to troops) I too question the bottle prevalence. There's a REASON glass-as-packaging was phased out -- cost-benefit tradeoff is terrible.

[Synova]

I'll believe incidents (such as the tabacco juice) but there's a big difference between an incident that's put a stop to and a behavior that's tolerated as business as usual.

The worst thing I ever saw, myself, was a foul mouthed little girl, probably 12 and probaby 8 months pregnant, exchanging words with the gate guards at Clark AB. They were abusive, she was abusive right back at them, but she wouldn't tell them who the father was. (And in the particular insanity that was the PI there wasn't anything any American could legally do for her, no matter how badly they wanted to.) One thing there wasn't, though, was any question whatsoever that if the guards were right and it was one of them that had been having sex with a 12 year old, if he got caught he could kiss his a**, and his career, goodbye.

That *without* the sort of public relations issues that are so in the forefront in Iraq... which any soldier able to breathe has to be aware of. If someone tells me that this bad thing, or that bad thing, has happened I don't automatically discount it because bad stuff *does* happen. What sets off all my BS alarms is when those things are presented as business as usual or as though they are tolerated.

[Tully]

Google "Aidan Delgado" and you'll quickly find out what kind of s***bag nutburger we're talking about. Especially the January 10, 2005 interview with AlterNet. Delgado is a new darling of the moonbat anti-war left who's found a new living on the anti-war lecture circuit. Don't hold your breath waiting for him to be able to prove his allegations--or for Herbert to ever acknowledge that he has no proof at all, just the self-serving words of a certifiable [multiple imaginative obscenities self-deleted] ward escapee. Delgado's claims are expanding exponentially with time, in both absurdity and vacuity.

[Collin Baber]

Many nasty things are going on over there.

[wes jackson]

I once had a crazy hit me on the back of my head, (hard), going down a staircase with a bottle of barbeque sauce.
The bottle's radius was twice that of a coke bottle. It just bounced. Split my head open of course, (24 stiches). NO WAY would a coke bottle break ON someones head.
This guy hates his own country, God only knows what fear drives his neurosis.

[JSAllison]

Way back in the day...geez, did I just say that? I can recall incidents of GIs flinging cans of peanut butter, cheese, jelly from their C-rats at kids as the train went by, but not with an intent to hurt, and were pretty much shut down when a noncom happened to catch sight of them. Me, I'd be scandalized, 'Dude, that's *food*! If you don't want it send it over here, I'm HUNgry!' OUCH! you @#$%^&&@^%^!!
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

[Steve H.]

Wes is right. It is very, very hard to break a Coke bottle on an object as soft as a person's head. And it would be impossible to break it over an object as soft as Mr. Delgado's head.

[Miriam]

Wow--I can't believe what I'm reading. Is this guy on drugs? While Coke DOES still manufacture and sell glass coke bottles overseas, the idea that they would make their way to Iraq (where, as was mentioned before, they use cans for EVERYTHING for easier storage) and then be used as bludgeoning devices is highly unlikely. Sure, there are bad things going on over there, but this guy's story sounds fishy from the get-go.

Why would these troops waste what good food? and how would they have gotten away with tearing the antennae off of their Humvees for use as bludgeoning devices? Wouldn't someone have noticed and complained that military vehicles were being intentionally damaged by American GIs? Furthermore, why would he be the ONLY one speaking out against this stuff? The whole thing sounds absolutely preposterous to me.

[wayne]

We can only hope someone (or the Lord) kills this SOB real soon. And the commie reporter. Should they do so I will commit money to his or her legal defense fund and stand up in court to testify about what a patriot the shooter is. Some people just need killing.

[Major Mike]

Wow Wayne...nice jump to light speed. I think we all have Mr. (Mrs.?) Delgado pretty much figured out...the increasingly inflammable nature of his stories (lies?)...his repeated telling of his sad story...how he is the only empathetic character that was ever in view...the stereotypical discriptions of the "acts" he witnessed...he is an attention hound, using the Vietnam era playbook...say bad things about the military, and there is always some MSM dog there to pick it up and run with it...no matter how stale, no matter how false. I wouldn't spend much more time on him...his 15 minutes will be up soon. MM

[Lokki]

Well.... A quick Google shows that there are still lots of bottled soft drinks in Iraq - see the link below for examples.

http://www.iranphilately.com/Iraqcaps.htm

Here's an article which mentions an Iraqi bottler stuck with "Millions of Pepsi bottles.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2004/01/07/financial1408EST0141.DTL
"

Delgado might have mispoken regarding Coke vs. Pepsi, however.. as Coke doesn't have much, if any presence in Iraq. Coca-Cola is imported to Iraq from Jordan, Lebanon and Turkey. - See this link:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3540956

American Forces, however, are supplied by AAFES which imports cans not bottles. So if the GI's had bottles in their vehicles, they were drinking local products.

[Brad]

I'm in Qatar and you can buy glass bottles of Coke, Pepsi, Sprite offbase. The Coke's are the 7 oz size. I can't imagine trying to bust one over someone's head. Sounds like a job for Mythbusters.

The most amazing part of the stories is that it would be tolerated. The second most amazing part of the story is that our guys would do it. The third most amazing thing is that it would have escaped the foreign media.

What would you do if your kids came home bloody from such an encounter? This could not have been kept quiet.

[Californio]

Well, I certainly look to mortal enemies to get the "truth" about whats what! Want to know what African-Americans and Jewish Americans are REALLY up to? Ask the Klan! Curious about the true goal of the left? Ask the John Birch Society!

Get the point? Amazing that the "intelligent" NYT cannot perceive the obvious. I mean they would have to have the most blatant agenda to ...., Hmmm, never mind.

[Bruck]

I think the story just rings false. As some have noted, a glass bottle is actually a tough piece of equipment. However, even if it did smash, it would likely do a great deal of damage to the soldier's hand. Think about it: shards of razorlike glass embedded in your hand. Even with gloves, it would endanger the soldier much more than one would tolerate. Wouldn't one just THROW the bottle? This would be safer, and maybe more accurate. But not once does he note that the bottles were thrown.

Good liars use details, but these details just don't add up.

[colagirl]

I agree with whoever said that it sounded like Delgado has found himself a better story than "I got scared, decided I didn't want to be a soldier anymore, and went home."

He's basically trying to rip a page out of the Vietnam playbook, and unfortunately some in the media are eating it up.

Note also Delgado's description of the guy as "going down on his knees and saying a prayer" before firing into the crowd. Not only do I find that extremely unlikely, that someone in a situation like that would lower their guard in that fashion, but note also how it invokes the specter of the left's Religious Right Boogeyman. (Cause Christians are all ignorant, bigoted violence-prone fanatics, right?) In fact it sounds like a leftist caricature of what they think the Right (esp. military) is like.

This story smells fishy. I'm betting at least there's a huge helping of exaggeration and hyperbole, and at worst, he's outright lying. Let's take this story apart, guys.

[Papa Ray]

Hey,

Yea, for the Military's reputation and for truth, the true should be told and verified.

But...the people that want to belive him, will and will look upon the truth with distain and hate (just as they look upon almost everything good about our Country and our Military).

Papa Ray
West Texas
USA

[SGT Dan]

It was a while before AAFES (Always And Forever Exploiting Soldiers!) got out to Mosul. Until maybe July we got 99 percent of our soda supply on the economy, and it was skinny 16 ounce glass Pepsi bottles.

Man, I wouldn't break one. You got your deposit back on those things, we'd turn them back in to the bottler while on the afternoon mounted patrol by the caseful.

As for Abu Graib, I never even heard of the place until I got back to the States and those goofball Reservists got busted playing Stupid Human Tricks.

The guy with the end of the jumper cables in each hand is just plain funny though. I wish we'd thought of that one.

[Emma Morrow]

This stinks like a VW full of Winter Solders.

If American troops were actually ubusing Iraqi children with regularity, you can be certain that Iraqi terrorists would provide photographic evidence to their western sympathiser Italian Communist writer Giuliana Sgrena.

She would relish any chance to help slur or endanger American troops; she's done it before and would help al-Zarqawi in a heatbeat.

[Huntress]

Its sad that the freak was given an honorable discharge...for there is NOTHING honorable about Aiden...he is a liar, a coward, and I find it impossible to believe he is a CO...since being one requires actually having a conscious.....which guys like Delgado Jeremy "The Cowardly Liar" Dinzman, and Pablo most assurdly are lacking!

Gawd the NY "We Support the Insurgents, and all moonbat left wing loons" Times just gets worse by the minute. I'd use it as toilet paper but its not good enough for my......well you get the picture!

[Subsunk]

Baldilocks,

Good job by Polipundit, B5, Mudville and you. You are the best, gal. I am thankful every day that you guys are able to delve into the real facts, obtain first hand reporting from those who were there, and are willing to put these items out for the rest of us to see.

Better than any newspaper or newschannel anywhere. Keep up the good work. Thank you for putting this out there. Very well done.

Subsunk

[Nathan]

Actually living here in the middle east for 3 1/2 years already I will tell you. YES Glass bottles are used in the middle east. Yes in the more civilized countries you have a majority of cans, even in Iraq hey have cans, BUT they also have bottles. Many little stores will sell bottles because the price is cheaper for the store because they can be recycled easier (heat washed out, can's need to be melted down, crushed etc). Same in Philippines, buy a can of beer and it will cost you 3 - 4 times what same in bottle will cost, needless to say not many can's produced. I spent 9 months in Iraq. Yes the military, state dept, etc all use can's. Just as someone said it's easier logistically, BUT also security. Can't tamper with a can as easy as someone could a bottle. BUT on the outside in the small stored and on the streets of Baghdad, the bottles outnumber the cans's 10 to 1 at least. AND the bottles are more solid than the ones I remember in the States.

Also, has anyone actually checked the military background of this guy. I was reading he supposedly enlisted the morning of the Sept 11 attacks. Given that the first plane was at 0846, not much room there for that to happen, as he was on the east coast (Florida I believe it said). PLUS what a coincidence that one of maybe a couple to enlist that day "BEFORE" the attacks would be the new poster child for the selfish cowards of the country.

[John Boyle]

My email to Powerline on this story:

Schoor: . . . “Also, we threw full C-ration cans at kids on the side of the road. Kids would be lined up on the side of the road. They'd be yelling out, "Chop, Chop, Chop, Chop," and they wanted food. They knew we carried C-rations. Well, just for a joke, these guys would take a full can if they were riding shotgun and throw it as hard as they could at a kid's head. I saw several kids' heads split wide open, knocked off the road, knocked into tires of vehicles behind, and knocked under tank traps.” . . . (citation below).

I can supply a searchable (in MS Word - 1.31 MB) complete text of the Winter Soldier Investigation transcript. You may need it, since it is about to be recycled piecemeal and wholesale, and you need to be able to recognize it in its Iraqi disguise. This is the worst-case nightmare of we Vietnam Vets who have been working to debunk the lies of the 70's, and to prevent the same thing from happening again to our sons in uniform. The least they could do is find new material. I guess that's what they thought they did, since it is now Coke bottles. Most of those I've talked to who were there (in Vietnam), including myself, think you'd have to be Warren Spahn to hit anything from the bed of a bouncing GI truck, with enough force or accuracy to do anything. C-ration cans were generally the size of tuna fish cans and not as heavy.

There is much more of this kind in the transcript. The hallmark of the WSI testimony is likewise its hearsay nature, and the willingness of the MSN then, and now, to repeat it without any critical sense. The simply audacious and implausible outrageousness of these kinds of allegations shock and nauseate every GI I've ever spoken to about them - not the content of the lies, but the mind-set of those telling them. The pervasive and consistent weltanschauung of the text is so psychopathic that it is really startling - and it is this outrageousness which was designed to insulate it from repudiation - it is almost too filthy to consider, and not imaginable by any sane person, "so therefore it must be true." I have always thought that no normal persons could have cooked this stuff up - it had to have come from real pros in the world of perverted thinking, i.e. professional Marxist propagandists with some access to comrades who actually did do things of this nature.

Citation Source:

VVAW Winter Soldier Investigation
January – February 1971

Miscellaneous Panel

Moderators:
Jan Crumb, (a/k/a Jan Barry) 28, SP/4, 18th Aviation Co. (December 1961 to October 1963)
John Kerry, 27, Lt. (j.g.), Coastal Sq., Coastal Division, 11 & 13, USNR (November 1968 to April 1969)
Witness:
Sam Schorr, SP/4 (E-4), 86th Combat Engineers (September 1966 to September 1967)
p. 177 (of my Combined Text in MS Word)

[BJ]

I don't find it hard to believe. Many of the troops believed Iraq had something to do with 9/11. George W. certainly made (or fudged) that connection whenever he spoke at military bases and elsewhere. Many of my friends who have never met anyone from the Middle East believe that the only anti-American Iraqis are those who were in favor of Saddam. Sorry, the Iraqis I've known for over 40 years hated Saddam and also distrusted the U.S. for many reasons. Far too many Americans have little background in the long history of U.S. intervention in the middle east.

[baldilocks]

BJ: GIs in general are more literate that you give us credit for. However, for the the sake of discussion, let's assume that your premises are correct--that Americans know little about the history of the region and/or know few people from the ME. How do those premises support the probability that Delgado is telling the truth? In other words, how does ignorance about a people make one want to abuse them?

What you may or may not know is that GIs are continuously briefed and monitored regarding relations with civilians populations, especially in overseas locations in which the culture is very different from western culture(s). Sure, among us imperfect humans there are bad actors. However, those of us who have been surrounded by American military culture all of our adult lives know that the authorities come down hard on same.

As for the Delgado stories, there are too many glaring implausibilities in them that smell like lies. (See some of the links.)

However, I would like to read your reasoning.

[BJ]

Of course I am not saying that all GI's behave this way. Maybe Delgado's account is exaggereated. But Vietnam also produced similar behavior. These things happen in a guerrila war situation when people/troops are in an uncertain and inhospitable environment, they don't know who is their friend or enemy but many natives obviously resent their presence, they don't know the language or culture, the weather is often horrible. You have a cross section of people in the military from basically decent and empathetic to those who are not.

[Tully]

>>>Of course I am not saying that all GI's behave this way. Maybe Delgado's account is exaggereated.<<<<

Maybe?!? Maybe it's mostly just flat-out lies, or greatly embellished fourth-hand retellings of things he never actually witnessed (and may never have occured) but that he's still happy to pass along as first-hand gospel truth. As long as the honorariums and travel and fawning and stroking come with it, of course.

Which is more likely? Delgado signed up for the Reserves thinking he could get piad and get cool perks and status for not doing much. When it turned serious and looked like he might have to actually SERVE, he started looking for outs. Oops!

[baldilocks]

BJ: Lots of people compare this one to Vietnam and I agree that there are many similarities. However one thing is very different: no draft. The military is composed of a far smaller cross-section of society than was so thirty-five years ago.

From this fact, one can generalize that there are a higher percentage of people in the military who *want* to be there and, therefore, are more willing to behave and/or follow the rules. (Obviously, not all.)

This is one of the many reasons that the biggest opponents to the draft are *volunteer* military members themselves. None of them wants to work next to a malcontent draftee who's hating his lot and doing anything possible to get home and/or taking out his frustrations on the civilian population. Such a creature can get his "buddies" killed.

These aren't people who joined the military at gunpoint.

[4therecord]

Mr. Delgado is just an amateur. He will have to get up during a congressional hearing and repeat the same lies before he will ever be considered as a presidential candidate for the Democratic Party.

[Buzz]

Assuming that bottles are plentiful in Iraq, and there were GIs who wanted to break bottles over the Iraqui's heads, and that you can break a bottle on somebody's head ... is it really likely that people would walk so close to a moving Humvee that you could just reach out and whack 'em with a bottle??? Or that soldiers would let potential suicide bombers walk 2 feet from their Humvee??? Gimme a break.

[bj]

Many people join the military to get money for school or training, or just extra money, in the case of the Guard. Some join because they think it will "straighten out" their lives.

Although the cross section isn't as great as it used to be, there is certainly a cross section of human nature and character. At Abu Ghraib, there were soldiers who took part in the abuse and others who knew it was illegal and ratted on them.

Aside from specific charges of glass coke bottles and Humvees, there is plenty of documentation of abuse and killings of civilians by human rights groups.

[Toren]

"the long history of US intervention in the Middle East"...?
We had little to do with the place until long after WW2. European involvement goes back nearly 100 times farther, and includes full-bore conquest and colonization. Not that the ME was ever a peaceful place for more than a few years at a time. Read Flavius Josephus to get some idea. The argument could easily be made that the ME is least politically stable area on Earth, and has been since literally the dawn of civilisation.
But according to the liberals, it's all the US's fault. (rolls eyes)

[Tully]

Admit it. The Crusades were our fault too.

>>>Many people join the military to get money for school or training, or just extra money<<<

They should read what they're signing. And they should pay some attention to that oath they have to take. Meaning, "so what?"

>>>Aside from specific charges of glass coke bottles and Humvees, there is plenty of documentation of abuse and killings of civilians by human rights groups<<<

This would be the "fake but accurate" line, right? LMAO.

[Tyranno]

Couldn't keep Abu Ghraib a secret. A young sergeant there spoke out.
Couldn't keep the Jessica Lynch rescue story a secret. A young Petty Officer there spoke out.
Couldn't keep the Pat Tillman "blue on blue" story a secret. A Ranger Staff Sergeant there spoke out.

And then we have this miracle, that nobody but Aiden Delgado witnessed the things he is making money traveling the country and speaking about! ! !

Tyranno

[Chad]

No other soldier in this putz's unit saw this happening? Nobody can corroborate this? B.S. Has anybody seen a steel antenna on a Humvee? He can't mean one of the tactical radio antennas could he? You'd kill somebody with one of those. I guarantee you, some big sergeant kicks a 6 yr. old in the chest, somebody is going to let higher know, or is going to whup him themself. That's complete and total Bravo Sierra. This guy is just plain out there. No relevance except that he wants to make the Army look bad.