Men, Women and the Church

Men…:::insert exasperation here::::….Don’t ask. Just trust me.

*****

On the other hand…

Michael Totten is back from Lebanon and has another post featuring more of the now-famous Cedar Revolution Protest Babes. As everyone knows, even heterosexual women—secure ones, that is--like looking at attractive women, if only to say “you go, girl(s)” or to get ideas on how to do their own hair and make-up.

Men liking women; all is right with the world.

In Michael’s comments, Will Franklin links to his own Babe Theory of Political Movements from a couple of months ago, in which he posits that where beautiful women lead, success (not to mention men) will follow.

Where and when there are hot babes, an exponential number of men will show up. If 100 cute girls with voluptuous bodies are protesting for freedom, you can count on a thousand men being there as well.

If sexy babes are involved in a peaceful political movement, it has a far greater chance of succeeding. If there are no good-looking women involved, the odds of a successful (and peaceful) movement fall dramatically.

Where and when alluring women are excluded from demonstrations, you can expect greater chances of strife, rioting, and failure.

*****

Turning Will’s theory upside down, I have this theory about church congregations; if there are too many women in the congregation, say more that 55%, the pastor has likely has too much “praise and worship” in his service and not enough teaching of the word and some of its less “uplifting” aspects. Recall Doug Giles’ words about the inability of many churches to attract men.

So why do most men avoid church? Here’s the veneer stripped-away answer: going to church for the majority of men is an exercise in unwanted effeminacy. Church, for most men, has not only become irrelevant; it has also become effeminate. Hanging out in church for most extra-Y chromosomes seems unmanly and most men more than anything want to be masculine!

In some of the churches I’ve attended, one would be hard pressed to find a man under seventy or a male child over twelve. Men don’t want to sit around on Sunday in church if all they are going to listen to is each member of the choir getting to sing solo in as many songs and a little bit of hollering preaching afterward. If guys are going to miss that football game, they’re going to do it because the pastor is

“serv[ing] up the solid meat of the scripture … the stuff that prods the congregation to biblical maturity rather than prolonging their [sic] infancy.”

Guys want you to tell them what, how, why and--most important—Who, without the pretty pink bow wrapped around it.

And, frankly--to acknowledge my less spiritual side--sitting around with a bunch of women for a couple of hours listening to bad singing and a little bit of shouting and watching a lot of jumping up and down puts me in a foul mood.

I’m willing to bet it does that to a lot of guys too.

Comments

[Steve]

It is sort of true about babealiciousness in that, lets say, someone like Laurie Dhue wants to tell you about the plight of this or that you will say to yourself I can't let her down I need to do something. But lets say Gloria Steinem wants to say something about it you think to yourself she should quit whining. This isn't totally true because, lets face it, Laurie Mylroie and Claudia Rosett aren't babes and yet I attentively read what they have to say.

As for church being effeminate, it does appear to many non-church going guys that the church's are somewhat pushing the homosexual agenda and a lot of men don't know enough to know that really shouldn't be so. I think they may be afraid to just go into one because it could be a place where guys exchange phone numbers to hook up later.

The other thing is that it is a little hard to know what it is all about and you never know if you are saying the right thing. It is suppose to be a pretty serious thing to teach the wrong thing according to the Bible which can discourage a person from trying especially if they realize they have had it wrong before and opened their mouth about it. It always appears to be just an exercise in argument and counter-argument in depressingly predictable ways and you can never really be settled upon anything.

Then again, if there is no discussion of scripture in order to avoid arguments you are left with a kind of kindergarten romper-room sing-a-long service. I don't know.

I grew up Catholic so none of this came into play because, for good or for bad, the service is meant to be watched. There are many things the Catholics teach outside of Mass I would like to argue with, but then again why bother? Its not like we all haven't heard it all before. Or, as if they are going to say "Oh, I see, OK."

[Morenuancedthanyou]

My theory is, there is something about the idea of having faith in an invisible being (God), principle (karma), etc. that strikes many men as effeminate. Men tend to shun faith as a show of weakness.
As for the link, Thank you. Just... Thank you.

[Mustang 23]

Steve,

So guys aren't going to church because they are afraid of being hit on by a gay man?

I call Shenanigans!

That is the most preposterous statement that I have ever heard! And that comes from a guy in the "Don't ask, Don't tell" Army. Good Grief,

Baldilocks,

That is one of the best explanations I have ever heard. If I wanted to go to a concert, I would go to a concert. Well done.

BTW: Nice new pic

[birdwoman]

I like that political theory...

As for the church thing, I noticed something weird recently. My mom comes and stays with us in the harshest months of winter (jan feb). She normally goes to church every week, but while she's with us, she begs off, UNLESS my husband doesn't go.

She doesn't like it when John goes to church. Weird, eh? I mean, my dad never really went to church, and neither did her dad. But that was their choice. it's almost like SHE thinks going to church is a feminine thing.

(*)>

[Michael]

A good church will encourage solid, faithful men, and acknowledge their masculinity. We are men. Nothing wrong with that.

A large part of faith is giving up pride in yourself and giving it to Jesus. It takes a strong person to submit.

[Steve]

To Mustang 23,

I was hit on by a guy in his 60s, maybe closer to 70, outside of a Unitarian Church on a Sunday as I was going to a Kentucky Fried Chicken nearby. He was driving a Cadillac and in his Sunday duds.

This may interest you but I can't reveal its location for you here. In fact not anywhere.

[Dave Schuler]

Men not going to church is not new. There's an old joke (in German) about women being good for “Kinder, Kirchen, Kuchen” (children, church, cooking). When I was working in Germany (many years ago) I was certainly the only man in church and nearly the only person under 60.

[PrinceC]

What's a 'church'?

[jeff]

It's not surprising, given that men are hard-wired differently than women. Rather than trying to rewire men, churches should think about their approach. I think you're right, there's a feminine bias to many churches that appeals to women but leaves men cold (just as there's a feminine bias in the school system; 'good' students tend to be obedient little girls, 'bad' students are rowdy males, who just happen to be wired differently & have difficultly sitting & focusing all day)

[Mustang 23]

Steve,

So guys in their 60's like you. I want to make a joke but I won't. :)

In all seriousness, sorry to hear you got put off by an unwelcome experience. Maybe you should try a bit more traditional church. I haven't had that sort of problem there.

[Will Franklin]

Nice thoughts. I think there's definitely something to the church theory.

I know also that a lot of guys (and girls) go to church to meet nice people of the opposite sex.

I also know that when I was in high school, some guys I knew went to church mostly to be around some of the cutest girls from school. People would keep tabs on which girls went to which churches. If a guy wanted to prove to a certain girl he was a nice guy or whatever, he might go visit her church that Sunday.

I know a lot of people who met their spouses at church or at church-related functions, as well.

Just some thoughts (I am the same WILL from WILLisms.com). Nice blog.

[Carridine]

(Nice pic, indeed!)

Jesus said, "I have many things to tell you, but you cannot bear them. Howbeit when He, the Spirit of Truth is come, He will lead you into all truth."

And then, Matt 24:14, Luke 21:24 and Matt 24:15, Jesus pinpointed WHEN the Spirit of Truth would come.

So maybe Jesus told the truth, and meant for us to leave the churches and turn in obedience to the One Who came at the time promised by Jesus?

Maybe Jesus can be trusted to have guided us to the Promised One, Who came May 23, 1844?

[Russell Wardlow]

I've heard this point made before about Christian religions today. One commentator, upon the death of JPII, remarked how one of his defining characteristics that made him such a charismatically powerful figure was his ability to retain an overt masculinity.

[Bookworm]

This is not about church, but about lovely women in the frontlines. When the Cedar Revolution was at its peak, one of my blog friends (and I can't for the life of me remember which one), had this lovely reason for commenting on the beautiful Lebanese women protesting for freedom: he said it was a wonderful thing, in the oppressive culture of fundamentalist Islam, to see beautiful, brave Arab women showing their faces to the world.

[Greg Walker]

John Eldridge's words, in Wild At Heart, about the feminizing of boys for decades really resonated with me. He also speaks of how churches, more often than not, emasculate men as well. If God made Adam and Eve in His image ("..male and female He created them.") and God is spirit, then my maleness, my masculinity is more than what's in my pants. I daily fight the battle against my flesh because my sin is there, NOT in my being male. I am thankful that the men in my men's group are men. Like me they were hungry for the truth in Wild At Heart. I participate in worship even when there's a choir, which is rare, especially if my heart is open and the music moves me. I don't see it as feminine to do so. I feel for the guys that aren't "allowed" to be male in their church.

[Christopher Taylor]

Very well put and very accurate. It's not so much the churches are being feminized any more than our culture... it's that they are emasculated. We need Churches with nads.

[Chris Austin]

Nice site! First post here...

I think the answer is football. Great discussion, but I'm going SAT-style with this one and going with the simple answer. If football was not played on Sunday, the male attendance numbers would be higher.

I'm putting a link on my site to here:

www.deadissue.com

I'm a former soldier 1996 to 2000 and have been writing for a number of years. Just started the webpage a little over a year ago, and have a good amount of content up. Peace.

"he said it was a wonderful thing, in the oppressive culture of fundamentalist Islam, to see beautiful, brave Arab women showing their faces to the world."

As far as I'm aware, Muslim fundamentalism was never really the issue in Lebanon. It may do you good to remember that all Muslim countries are not like Saudi Arabia, much as all Christian countries are not like america.

Also, I don't think the number of beautiful women protesting in Lebanon has anything to do with their politics. When I was there, I noticed that their women just tend to be better looking. Or rather that the proportion of women that are beautiful is higher than elsewhere. Mmmmm...happy memories

[ben]

"he said it was a wonderful thing, in the oppressive culture of fundamentalist Islam, to see beautiful, brave Arab women showing their faces to the world."

As far as I'm aware, Muslim fundamentalism was never really the issue in Lebanon. It may do you good to remember that all Muslim countries are not like Saudi Arabia, much as all Christian countries are not like america.

Also, I don't think the number of beautiful women protesting in Lebanon has anything to do with their politics. When I was there, I noticed that their women just tend to be better looking. Or rather that the proportion of women that are beautiful is higher than elsewhere. Mmmmm...happy memories

[ben]

If anyone is intereted in Lebanon's recent history, I'd recommend Pity The Nation, by Robert Fisk.

[ben]

oops.

[jtb-in-texas]

Men (and women) avoid church to avoid confronting their need for a Savior. It's not about bad singing, jumping around, and shouting... many people do the same thing at sporting events...

It's about where we direct our worship--toward God or toward ourselves... Does one go to church out of obedience to the Bible (Matthew 28:18-20) or to be entertained?

We don't like being told (1) we are sinners (Romans 3:23), (2) we have to rely on Someone Else (Ephesians 2:8-9), and (3) admit all of this publicly...

I used to (unconsciously) start fights with my ex. so I wouldn't have to go... it cost me my marriage and my kid and a lot more of my false pride to learn that "real men love Jesus"...

I sincerely hope thar none of your readers suffer like I did because of their own actions...

[baldilocks]

jtb:

"Men (and women) avoid church to avoid confronting their need for a Savior."

For some, that is true. For others, it's about "bad singing, jumping around, and shouting" and meaningless ritual and bogus theology. It was for me. Such churches generally refrain from reminding their parishioners that they are sinners, so that isn't the issue.

For a while I didn't go to church because of this. I had accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior and constantly read the Bible, but found going to such churches like sticking needles in my eyes. So I prayed about it and was lead to a church that had different priorities.

[terry]

You said it, Baldilocks. I'm at the praying-but-haven't-found-one yet. My church still gives good solid teaching but they've moved over the last 20 years to a very touchy-feely emotion-yanking format which leaves me angry at the blatant manipulation. Maybe a better Christian could ignore it, knowing they're trying to engage an underchurched segment of the population who WANT to be made to feel feelings, but I just don't feel like enduring it.

[Duane]

I'll try to make this real quick and to the point. I believe the big reason why most men do not attend church on a regular basis is because in most churches today, men are not given the room to fully be themselves without someone in leadership feeling intimidated. In many churches today, the outer cover says "come and discover your gifts", but the real deal is "come and kiss the ring of the pastor". Unless you act like the pastor, talk like him, dress like him, etc. most men find out quickly that there is no room for them. By nature, men are leaders in their own right. What many churches do is to tell their congregation to only acknowledge this inner-strength in one man--the pastor. A true man has no problem being a follower, but he also needs the space and encouragement to lead.

This is the problem of todays' church--it is designed around a man (pastor) instead of Christ. Christ gives us all the freedom to be the man or woman who he created us to be. There is nothing in the Bible that says we have to be like pastor.

I guess that wasn't short, huh..

[baldilocks]

Duane: No, but it was interesting; a big plus. :-)

[Fred Schoeneman]

Baldilocks,

I think you're overlooking the obvious. Churchgoing women are less likely to put out.

f

[urthshu]

Such churches generally refrain from reminding their parishioners that they are sinners, so that isn't the issue.

Right, I think. It might sound harsh, but a masculine church might very well say something along the lines of: "We're all going to heaven, but not those sorry XXXs"

At base, religion is often exclusionary, not inclusive, by its very nature. Pushing for inclusion at all costs tends to rent the fabric. Doing this loses the [already bare] logic of going to begin with.

/lol @ myself: Episcopalian ;^D

[www.deadissue.com]

When I was a born again Christian it took a while before I found the right church. I was in high school up in New Hampshire and couldn't drive as of yet. The Baptist church a few miles away was the one.

Before being saved, the church my mother attended was fine, but after converting - I craved energy and passion in the services I attended. The singing, note-less sermons...

But now I'm more interested in the sermon. As we grow, different elements appeal to us in different ways. I'm not a born-again Christian anymore, but felt like I knew exactally what some posters were talking about.

All this said...I still think that football is the reason for more women going to church than men. That's a large demographic...NFL fans. Some of their wives have to go to church alone because of it, and that might explain the ratios we're discussing here.