Schiavo Two Cents

I haven’t done any posting on Terry Schiavo except to make glancing comments. There’s a reason.

My grandmother's (step dad’s mom) youngest was born with multiple birth defects. Basically, she was born the way Terry Schiavo became—probably with far less cognitive ability than Ms. Schiavo.

My aunt couldn’t walk or talk or feed herself. She could, however, laugh, cry and recognize familiar people. When she was born, doctors said that she wouldn’t live past one year and suggested that my grandmother institutionalize her. That, however, was out of the question, so she lived at home—for thirty-eight years. My aunt died only a few months after my grandmother did—probably from grief.

(When my aunt was alive, I knew that there would always someone else at home when I called Grandma’s house. Aunt was never left alone.)

What’s being done to Terry Schiavo is barbaric, criminal and evil. Plain and simple. All the talk is just that.

Comments

[Brian H]

What if . . .
What her husband says is true, and that she explicitly told him she didn't want to be kept around on life support the way she is?

[fuzz]

Brian,

What if he actually lied?

And the life support is just feeding (food and water). She breathes on her own. They're STARVING and DEHYDRATING her to death. We don't even do that to murderers or dogs even.

[baldilocks]

Brian: all the "what ifs" in the world are pointless jabbering if there's no way to verify her wishes other than via his word.

This is why people aren't legally bound to "verbal contracts."

[Collin Baber]

So much emotionally-charged agitation has been stirred up that I fear some zealot may end up committing acts of violence in the vicinity of the hospice.

[baldilocks]

Collin:

I hope not.

[Chevy Rose]

Terri has been like this for 15 yrs., her "husband" took up with another woman and they have a couple of kids. To my way of thinking he's not a faithful husband and the state should have voided the marriage so he could marry. Then Terri could be in the care of her parents. I read today that he wouldn't allow her parents in Terri's room when the tube was removed. And the only reason it's even being done now is because he went to court and was 'granted' permission, not because of her condition. What greater pain for a parent then to be denied that last goodbye to their only child.

[pat m.]

With all due respect, your comparison of the Schiavo matter with your aunt's situation strikes me as ill-considered.

You initially state that your aunt "was born the way Terry Schiavo became—probably with far less cognitive ability than Ms. Schiavo." Immediately thereafter, however, you state that your aunt could "laugh, cry and recognize familiar people."

Here is what the evidence presented in court established about Ms. Schiavo's condition:

"The evidence is overwhelming that Theresa is in a permanent or persistent vegetative state. It is important to understand that a persistent vegetative state is not simply a coma. She is not asleep. She has cycles of apparent wakefulness and apparent sleep without any cognition or awareness. As she breathes, she often makes moaning sounds. Theresa has severe contractures of her hands, elbows, knees, and feet.

Over the span of this last decade, Theresa's brain has deteriorated because of the lack of oxygen it suffered at the time of the heart attack. By mid-1996, the CAT scans of her brain showed a severely abnormal structure. At this point, much of her cerebral cortex is simply gone and has been replaced by cerebral spinal fluid. Medicine cannot cure this condition. Unless an act of God, a true miracle, were to recreate her brain, Theresa will always remain in an unconscious, reflexive state, totally dependent upon others to feed her and care for her most private needs. She could remain in this state for many years."

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=fl&vol=2D00-1269&invol=1

The evidence presented in court also convinced the judge that Ms. Schiavo told her husband that she would not have wanted to be kept alive under such conditions.

If these things are true, would you still maintain that what is being done is "barbaric, criminal and evil"?

[baldilocks]

Sounds about the same as my aunt, Pat M. The stories of Ms. Schiavo's condition are conflicting, however. Why err on the side of letting her starve to death?

[Crystal Clear]

Not to mention PatM part of the problem in this situation is exactly what you presented to bolster your position: the judge and court and the way Greer has judged...are terribly wrong if you look at everything...oh and also things that are NOT there like more testing such as MRI or PET scan and speech therapy...and of course the part of relying on hearsay by her husband the only one who was with her the night of her collapse, the only one who ever stood to gain anything by her death, and the only one who possibly could have lost a whole lot if she recovered...not really overwhelming and convincing now is it....

[pat m.]

I'm really at a loss to see how you can conclude that the court's description of Ms. Schiavo (e.g., "cycles of apparent wakefulness and apparent sleep without any cognition or awareness") shows her to be "about the same" as your aunt, who you stated could "laugh, cry and recognize familiar people."

Further, I don't dispute that the stories of her condition are conflicting, but just about any court case involves conflicting stories. The judge's duty here, however, was not to "err" to one side or the other of the issue - it was to resolve the issue before him based upon the evidence presented and the applicable law. From everything I've read, this appears to be exactly what the judge did.

Further, his decision has been reviewed, and upheld, by multiple courts. Is that worth nothing? Are we to believe all these courts are part of a massive conspiracy to ignore the true state of affairs just so they can kill off Terry Schiavo?

Unlike you and I, the judge here heard all the evidence. From that evidence, he concluded that Ms. Schiavo was in a persistent and permanent vegetative state AND that Ms. Schiavo had told her husband that she would not want to live in such circumstances. If you were the judge and were honestly convinced that these were the facts, what would you do?

[pat m.]

Crystal,

Like you, I've tried to look at "everything", or at least, as much information as possible, about this case. I've read websites supporting both sides; I've watched the videos of Terri; I've read several of the court decisions. (Incidentally, one of the most informative, and, IMO, objective sites is
http://www.abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html
which is a page put together by a Fla. lawyer.)

I simply disagree with your conclusion that Judge Greer is "terribly wrong" here. Having read his decisions, it seems he hardly could have been more conscientious and thorough in how he has handled this case. Further, many, many courts have reviewed, and affirmed his decisions. Further, the MRI/PET scan issue you raise is debunked here: http://pekinprattles.blogspot.com/2005/03/schiavo-dr-cranford-offers-reply.html while the remaining items you point to in your post are hardly novel and have already been considered by many courts.

In any event, I doubt that either you or Baldilocks will agree with my take on this, but I am curious to hear what you would do if you were the judge and the evidence convinced you that Terri was both in a persistent vegetative state and had told her husband she would not want to live like that.

[ric landers]

Eh ... what's being done to Terri Schiavo?

Ok, I live in a cave.

Ok, I followed your link and found out.

That's not the point.

The point is bloggers need to follow basic rules about reporting: don't assume people know what you're talking about -- tell them what? where? when? how? and most especially who?

I haven't read a newspaper in a week so I was unaware that her tube had been removed.

ric

[David]

First, I apologize for the length of this excerpt, but I am cutting a large portion of a very excellent article out as it is. Excerpting (and emphasizing) from an excellent, but disturbing, article:
----------
And, quite apart from the question of Terri's therapy and care, it is entirely likely that Terri has never been properly diagnosed. Terri is usually described as being in a Persistent Vegetative State (PVS), and indeed Judge Greer ruled as a finding of fact that she is PVS; but this diagnosis and finding were arrived at in a way that has many neurologists expressing surprise and dismay.

I have spent the past ten days recruiting and interviewing neurologists who are willing to come forward and offer affidavits or declarations concerning new testing and examinations for Terri. In addition to the 15 neurologists' affidavits Gibbs had in time to present in court, I have commitments from over 30 others who are willing to testify that Terri should have new and additional testing, and new examinations by unbiased neurologists. Almost 50 neurologists all say the same thing: Terri should be reevaluated, Terri should be reexamined, and there are grave doubts as to the accuracy of Terri's diagnosis of PVS. All of these neurologists are board-certified; a number of them are fellows of the prestigious American Academy of Neurology; several are professors of neurology at major medical schools.

So how can Judge Greer ignore the opinions of so many qualified neurologists, some of whom are leaders in the field? The answer is that Michael Schiavo, his attorney George Felos, and Judge Greer already have the diagnosis they want.

Terri's diagnosis was arrived at without the benefit of testing that most neurologists would consider standard for diagnosing PVS. One such test is MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imaging). MRI is widely used today, even for ailments as simple as knee injuries - but Terri has never had one. Michael has repeatedly refused to consent to one. The neurologists I have spoken to have reacted with shock upon learning this fact. One such neurologist is Dr. Peter Morin. He is a researcher specializing in degenerative brain diseases, and has both an M.D. and a Ph.D. in biochemistry from Boston University.

In the course of my conversation with Dr. Morin, he made reference to the standard use of MRI and PET (Positron Emission Tomography) scans to diagnose the extent of brain injuries. He seemed to assume that these had been done for Terri. I stopped him and told him that these tests have never been done for her; that Michael had refused them.

There was a moment of dead silence.

"That's criminal," he said, and then asked, in a tone of utter incredulity: "How can he continue as guardian? People are deliberating over this woman's life and death and there's been no MRI or PET?" He drew a reasonable conclusion: "These people [Michael Schiavo, George Felos, and Judge Greer] don't want the information."

-----------------------
The article, Starving for a Fair Diagnosis, is linked to my name, and is well worth the time invested in reading it.

[shari]

why does no one care about how she gotin this condition. she "collapsed" in her home in her twenties. her husband did it and he wants to murder her so she doesnt tell. he has never given her any therapy even though he got all the money for it. he has moved on personally so why cant she get a divorce. i think its a shame these people will kill her without even knowing. it seems that you would at least investigate the claims of these lawyes and family who say she is aware. if she is, starving will be really painful. if she gets through this her husband shouod go to jail and they should sue the court. also she had made statements against "death with dignity" in the past it was reported on www.lifenews.com. we simply cant know and kill her based off her husbands statemtn that she said something while watching tv. and she is being given food and water to be kept alive, we dont keep food and water from criminals.

[GC]

This is probably the best opinion I've read yet on Terri Schiavo case.

http://thoughtsonline.blogspot.com/2005/03/are-we-pot-or-kettle-ace-wizbang.html

[GC]

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

A little more background information.

[Phil]

I view Michael Schiavo with more than a little suspicion. He has not exhausted every therapeutic possibility that her malpractice settlement was meant for. As a matter of fact, he has denied things as basic as an MRI. Other doctors have come forward and Michael has refused so much as an exam. He only "remembered" Terri's wish 8 years after the fact, and after he had taken up with another woman. Beyond that, a feeding tube is not extraordinary care; causing her to die an excruciating death by dehydration is repugnant and barbaric. And why...WHY demand she be cremated immediately after death? What is he hiding?

[Michael]

What is being done to Terri is wrong and disgusting and barbaric and horrible. There are no two ways about it.

And to you people who somehow think this is somehow ok, could you at least take her to the vet and have her put down?

How in the name of God can you countenance the starving to death of a human being in the name of mercy or whatevertheck you believe in?

If someone were to do that to a dog you would be all over them screaming with self-rightous horror.

There are indeed monsters in this world. I think if you look carefully you will find them in your bathroom.

[Ginny]

This whole thing seems very cold-hard-cash oriented. Mr. Shiavo didn't want to officially divorce 'cause he liked the money. Lots of people not related to Terri have made money off of her situation (lawyers namely). But now, it is not 'profitable' to keep her alive so her husband wants her gone. If the man had any conscience, he would let her parents take over and wash his hands of the situation. He is wrong, plain and simple. I don't blame him for remarrying and having other children--but when he was ready to do that, he should've given up his ties to Terri.

[baldilocks]

ric: I can assume whatever I wish to assume about a reader's knowledge of a particular subject. It's not my job to spoon feed you.

You're pushing it. Again.

[Alnot]

I have followed this case for years and what has been done to Terri is evil, criminal and inexcusable. I have a son who has severe brain damage caused by premature birth in a rural area of Arizona. We chose to bring him home because he is our son. I sympathize with the Schindlers as a parent but also because of my exposure to severely handicapped individuals through Special Olympics and the fact that my wife converted her teaching degree and now has a Masters in Special Education. We have had Alex for over nineteen years now and I have seen many children grow up dealing with these issues. Terri is not in PVS and that much is clear by the reports of multiple witnesses despite Michael and his attorneys attempts to keep her isolated and out of sight. A simple investigation into the medical records would answer many questions but they are controlled by Michael and never been subpoenaed for a proper investigation. Terri's civil rights and numerous laws have been broken and yet nobody seems to have the courage to obey the law. That is a sad commentary on the moral state of this country, the state of Florida and Pinellas County.

[Good hat]

Hey Brian- the transcript from the Larry King show has Schiavo saying he didn't KNOW what Terri wanted. What about that?

http://theanchoress.blogspot.com/2005/03/so-michael-schiavo-says-he-doenst-know_20.html

[J. Peden]

pat m: thanks for the link. If Terri's cortex is gone, she's been dead since. It does not grow back.

Why it would be the case that now no further exam of her medical records is possible, as alleged, is not comprehensible. I conclude that her records are accessible. How else could anyone decide the case? [How would we even know for sure an MRI had not been done since, or even that she is alleged to be still in a Persistent Vegetative State?]

[Curt]

I am sitting in my office, catching up on my blog reading only a few miles from the Hospice where Terri Shavaio is being left to die. After hearing the news conference by George Felos on Friday afternoon as I left work, I sat down and began a long post. Living here, I hear a lot of the detail of the story. Quite honestly, it makes me sick to hear them pushing to kill a woman, and to cremate her. I get into a lot more of my observations from local meida, as well as how this "Death by Lawyer" fits into a larger agenda in my post from yesterday. It's way too scary to figure it's all her wishes, when Michael doesn't even have the compassion to let her parents near her with video cameras. I can only conclude he is afraid of prison at this point, and he can't afford to have her talk. I cover why I say that in my post. Pray hard, for her, but for us all, if she is allowed to die.

[Dave Munger]

Nerve tissue does not grow back (some types of cells in the brain do though, like glial cells). It does not follow that when brain tissue is dead or destroyed there is no possibility of a patient's condition improving. You have heard of people having to learn to walk and talk over again; this does not require new brain tissue to grow. If there is actually no hope for an improvement in someone's condition, it does not neccessarily follow that they should not be kept alive. It is not a physicians job to grow back lost body parts, it is to to what can be done.

[Charlie (Colorado)]

You're absolutely right. We wouldn't let a treasured pet cat live in conditions like that --- we'd put her down, and out of her misery.

[Steve in Boston]

All regligious beliefs aside...

No matter the circumstances, starving and dehydrating someone to death is inhuman. Period. If she were on a ventilator, heart pump, or other mechanical means of keeping her alive, I could possibly agree that shutting off life support would be the humane thing to do, as it is relatively quick, however, she is not. 3-4 weeks of starving and thirsting to death has got to be one of the most horrific ways for a person to go.

The husband's motives are entirely cloudy, and suspect. The circumstances surrounding how Terri came to be in this condition are equally mysterious.

His repeated and long history of refusing to allow basic therapy and other means of potentially improving his wife's condition, shows that he is not acting in HER best interests. His actions by seeking another "wife", having children, and setting up a household with a second family shows that he is no longer interested in her welfare, or the "burden" of supporting Terri.

We have child welfare laws that would remove custody of a child from a parent or guardian in similar situations, yet this man, who has clearly moved on with his life, has in all but "paperwork" divorced his wife. He forfeited his right to act on her behalf when he decided to start another family.

Lacking any solid proof of Terri's wishes, the decision should be left to the parents, and the "husband" should be removed from all involvement in the matter. Support, insurance, etc., should be the responsibility of the parents.

The man is divorced, and that's a fact. Its no different than commonlaw marriage, but in reverse. His input, IMHO, is invalid. Her parents should be given far more power over Terri's care and treatment than that inhuman piece of garbage Terri had the misfortune of being married to.