The Champions of Rights

I intended to do a more detailed dissection of last night’s debate, but there are so many others that have done it better, that I’ll link to a few of them below.

Stephen Green

Captain Ed

Gordon

Frank J.

Michelle Malkin

Prometheus 6

However, there’s one question I have: when did Mary Cheney’s lesbianism become a legitimate talking point for the Democrat ticket? During the last two debates, both Senators Kerry and Edwards have invoked the name of Vice President Cheney’s daughter while making whatever point they were trying to make regarding homosexuality and/or same-sex marriage. Why? Last time I checked, Ms. Cheney isn’t running for office and even if she were and since she’s up front about her preference, what would it matter?

Maybe Ms. Cheney’s existence in her family seems like some sort of totem of hypocrisy to the Democrat ticket; her father is a conservative Republican and many conservative Republicans are also devout Christians. Perhaps the senators are stupidly calculating that this will cause those Republicans to think twice about voting for the Republican ticket, as if no Christian has ever had to accept the existence of a homosexual family member.

So, assuming that Vice President Cheney and his wife, Lynne, are Christians, what would the senators have had the couple do upon the discovery that their daughter was a lesbian? Pretend as though she were straight? Deny her? Disown her? Denounce her and her lifestyle to the rooftops? One can only imagine what the senators would be saying had the Cheneys done any of the above. Then we’d be hearing about the Cheneys' lack of Christian love and charity for their own flesh and blood.

Lynne Cheney has had enough of the senators.

"The only thing I can conclude is he [Kerry] is not a good man. I'm speaking as a mom," she said. "What a cheap and tawdry political trick."

Like any good mother, she will do her best to protect her children. And you’d think that the Kerry-Edwards campaign would advise the two and their spouses to clam up over the incident, what with all the bad press that Senator Kerry is getting for mentioning Mary Cheney. But, true to form, the campaign makes yet another misstep. Guess they didn’t get to Senator Edwards’ wife, Elizabeth, in time.

"She's [Lynne Cheney] overreacted to this and treated it as if it's shameful to have this discussion. I think that's a very sad state of affairs… I think that it indicates a certain degree of shame with respect to her daughter's sexual preferences… It makes me really sad that that's Lynne's response."

What a bag. No, Mrs. Edwards, it isn’t shameful to have a discussion on homosexuality. What is shameful is that you, your husband and his buddy would act as if a personal matter of an individual and of her family were a legitimate discussion point for any of the debates. What’s also shameful is that you would publicly stick your nose into their business. And, what’s sad (though it doesn’t make me sad) is that your husband’s party would claim to be the defenders of “minority” rights and the right to privacy. So now we can assume that the privacy rights of a Republican office-holder's family member are the exception and are, therefore, fair game. Thanks for letting us in on it.

(Thanks to Steve and one of his commenters)

Comments

[torchy]

WOW, this is basically what I wrote in the previous thread", posting exatly 17 minutes after you did without knowing. As I said, Kerry/Edwards must be an closet lesbian ticket.

[King of Fools]

So, parents should not be informed if their 14 year old is having an abortion, because that is private. But it is 'fair game' for the Johns to repeatedly point out the sexual orientation of their opponent's daughter because that isn't a privacy issue. (It's a publicity issue!)

[jeff]

Isn't it fresh that all the gay-baiting is coming from Kerry-Edwards?

Conservative homos like Mary Cheney & moi drive libs as crazy as conservative blacks like u & Condi, because it means the staff is escaping the plantation.

The rub is, Kedwards don't support gay marriage, so what exactly is their beef? It's a cheap shot, showing desperation. Sadly, many gays buy the con.

BTW, here's a great photogallery of the 114th Company in Iraq: http://coolblue.typepad.com/photos/114th_soldiers/index.html

[Frank J.]

This issue and the actors in it have angered me so much that I'd be writing a quite irate post if I weren't dead right now.

[steve talbert]

I can think of some reasons Mary's name came up.

1. Dick Cheney first brought up Mary being gay in June at a public speech and again over a month ago and she is brought out anytime the RNC want to let the "gay community" think that they are not "antigay".

2. Mary has a public and very high position in his campaign. She goes around saying that the fact that she is gay means the Bush-Cheney ticket is ok for gays to vote for. She was also very public about it during 2000 and 2002 elections.

3. She is over 21.

4. The question was about being gay. If the Cheneys or Bushes had a daughter married to a black man and they were attempting to make interracial marriages illegal in the Nation Constitution, it would be news worthy.

5. It's only a bad thing to talk about Mary if you think being gay is bad. Bush and Kerry both talked about their wives and no one complained.

[Steve Talbert]

It's sad that everyone is so mad at Kerry for saying something nice about Mary while everyone was quiet when Keyes insulted her. A majority of americans who really don't care are beginning to realize that the 1990 cultural wars are back. Judging by the tone of madness from BC04, I am thinking this election is going to be like 1992 again.

[otto]

Mary Cheney is the BC'04 Director of Vice Presidential Operations. She has made a career of doing gay outreach, first for Coors and then for Republicans in various capacities.

Dick Cheney, August:

Waterford, Mich. -- Vice President Dick Cheney spelled out Tuesday his differences with President Bush on the volatile issue of gay marriage, while for the first time discussing the sexual orientation of his gay daughter in a public setting.

Asked his position on the subject at a town hall meeting in Davenport, Iowa, Cheney replied: "Lynne and I have a gay daughter, so it's an issue that our family is very familiar with. ... With respect to the question of relationships, my general view is that freedom means freedom for everyone. People ought to be able to free -- ought to be free to enter into any kind of relationship they want to."

Cheney went on to repeat the position he first outlined in the 2000 campaign -- that same-sex marriage should be left to the states to decide. He noted, however, that Bush has endorsed a constitutional amendment preventing the states from recognizing such marriages.

"At this point ... my own preference is as I've stated," Cheney said. "But the president makes basic policy for the administration. And he's made it.

[baldilocks]

Steve: Keyes was dispatched on this blog and several others as a nut and a hypocrite a good month or so ago. That he said something even nuttier is no surprise. However since he's trailing Barack Obama in the Illinois senate race by about 45 points, why take anything he says seriously? Most Illinois Republicans I know are voting for Obama or abstaining.

Steve and Otto: why does any of that make Mary Cheney and how she allegedly views her homosexuality a legitimate debating point. How would Senator Kerry *know* what Ms. Cheney thinks about this things? Perhaps she call the senator and said "use this talking point in your debate." No I don't think that it's plausible either.

It's likely that Senator Kerry knows a famous homosexual or two. Why didn't he get permission to drop one of their names?

[DarkStar]

I think it's a legitmate use. I didn't see the debate, but if what I heard was in full context, it wasn't disrespectful.

And she is a public figure by her previous public statements about her personal life.

[David Anderson]

Comeone J, this is a hypocritical position and you know it.

[David Blue]

The best moment of all the debates:

IFILL: Mr. Vice President, you have 90 seconds.

CHENEY: Well, Gwen, let me simply thank the senator for the kind words he said about my family and our daughter. I appreciate that very much.

IFILL: That's it?

CHENEY: That's it.

IFILL: OK, then we'll move on to the next question.

Dick Cheney seemed to me to be a father then, more than a politician. He did the right thing for his daughter and his family, which was to shut up. That's "family values" for real.

And if that had been a one-off case of a political blow drifting slightly south of the belt, sans coordination, premeditation and malice aforethought, that would have been that.

steve talbert makes a bunch of valid points about Mary Cheney being there as a potential issue.

But Mary Cheney is actually an issue because both John Edwards and then John F. Kerry made her one in nationally televised debates. (John Kerry did it without her father being present and in a position to speak, which somehow irritated me even more.) They made her a talking point in a creepy way, using nurturing words even though solidarity with the Cheneys was the furthest thing from their minds. (They know their involvement could not be welcome.)

In doing that, John Edwards and John F. Kerry were punching emotional buttons. They were eliciting a gut reaction from people who feel strongly about family values.

OK, then here are my gut reactions. My opinion of Daddy Cheney went up 100%, and it was already high. And John Edwards and John F. Kerry both slimed themselves.

[seal-lover]

During the VP debates, they talked about health care costs, and one or both of them mentioned how one of the solutions was to get people to listen to their doctors more and take better care of their health, thus avoiding unnecessary doctor's visits.
In this light, Cheney could have said something like, "I'm sure you understand the importance of guarding your health Senator, seeing how your beautiful wife is so overweight." But he didn't.

[seal-lover]

And no, I'm not suggesting he actually should have insulted Mrs Edwards. My point is one's family members should not be fair game for the opponent.

[torchy]

How in hell would John Kerry know what issues Mary Cheney deals with in her non-chosen lesbian condition. He was discussing private personal material people tend to trust only with their loved ones and that they probably wouldn't want as topic or an example in public debate. Those are the confidences Kerry broke and used to his political advantage.

[baldilocks]

David Anderson: Do me a favor. Don't tell me what I know. You have no way of knowing *that* any more than Senator Kerry knows about what Mary Cheney thinks.

If you have a different take on this situation, state your case. Otherwise, save the unsubstantiated claims.

[jab]

Mary Cheney is FAIR GAME.

(1) She CHOSE to help run Cheney's reelection campaign... she has a faily high position in the re-election effort... she is NOT some innocent, private bystander unaffiliated with the campaign, but an active participant.

(2) She was a member of the Republican Unity Coalition, where she gave NUMEROUS PUBLIC SPEECHES where she has stated:
"We can make sexual orientation a nonissue for the Republican Party, and we can help achieve equality for all gay and lesbian Americans." SHE HAS ACTIVELY CAMPAIGNED FOR GAY RIGHTS WITHIN THE GOP... again... she chose the public life on this issue... and she is part of her father's campaign...
Dick and Lynn can't whine that she has nothing to do with this campaign and should be left out of it.

(3) Finally, she is not some underage, defenseless little girl... she is a 34 year-old grown WOMAN... she can defend herself.

[jab]

(4) Dick Cheney himself has brought up the fact that his daughter is gay in stump speeches!!

[Ben]

Kedwards brought up Mary for one reason only. That is to appeal to the homophobes out there voting. Kedwards want the homophobe vote, its that simple.

No, her lifestyle, unless she is the one running for office, is not "fair game". Trying to use this as a political prop for their candidacy is ineffective and counterproductive. Because it is so blatent, it is going to backfire.

The Cheney's may disapprove of their daughter's lifestyle, but they are not locking her up, trying to "cure" her, or really much of anything about it. For the Kewards folks to keep trucking it out, makes Kedward's team look like the homophobes.

[StinKerr]

If Kerry really meant no harm he could have used Barney Frank as an example or the New Jersey Governor or any of his gay Hollywoood suppporters. No, I think he was striking a low blow.

Yes, Cheney has openly discussed it in his stump speeches because he has been repeatedly questioned about it and found it necessary to address the matter.

There has long been an underground campaign to bring this up as often as possible. Check DU archives. They were organizing an email campaign to do just that.

[JosephMendiola]

Dubya did a prety good job in Debate#3 -although Kerry was still the stronger speaker, Kerry's platform still isn't anything more than a louder, better-sounding rehash of old, traditional, retreaded, and more imporatntly FAILED Leftist-Socialist points and agendas! INDIRECTLY, by claiming that Dubya is the first USPOTUS to "lose jobs", Kerry is affirming that the Reagan-Bush1-Republican economy was responsible for America's prosperity in the "Clinton '90's", NOT FROM CLINTON HIMSELF AS SO MANY LEFTIES CLAIM, beside also seemingly disproving the much ballyhooed Left-claim that one-termer Bush 1 was responsible for the worst recession in US history! THE ONLY THING LEFT IS FOR KERRY TO ALLUDE OR AFFIRM THAT CLINTON WAS POTUS ONLY VIA ELECTION FRAUD, AS OLE BILL HIMSELF INFERS OR ADMITS TO, AGAINST BUSH 1 AND DOLE!

[Serenity]

Edwards stated that it was perfectly ok to do this because the Cheney's brought it up first.

The Cheney's get to talk about their daughter because she is THEIR daughter...that does NOT mean the door is open for everyone else to talk about someone elses child.

These people have no class and no manners.

[Lola]

Hey . . . Mary Cheney is NOT an elected official making policy - there's no point dragging her in. There are other people doing the same thing she is doing who are related to elected officials - are they fair game as well? No, I don't think so. Otherwise we'd be hearing alot more idiotic comments like this. Even if one is a grown-up adult over age 21, doesn't mean it is suddenly okay to refer to her in that manner. If any of my relatives running for office tried to pull this stunt, I would rip their head off. It's just another black mark in the long list in my book when it comes to Kedwards.

[molotov]

I don't see what was the big deal. Mary Cheney is an open lesbian. She also heads her father's re-election campaign, so is a public figure. Anyone who reads the news knows that she's gay. Yawn...

[rvman]

Mentioning Mary wasn't an attempt to split Cheney off from the right, it was a shout-out to his own base. There is a certain segment of the left for whom hypocrisy and inauthenticity are the greatest sins imaginable. "Cheney denies his own beliefs and his own daughter to support Bush when Bush advocates an anti-gay agenda. " Many of these folks support Nader - this was an attempt to bring some of them back. He didn't recognize or didn't care that, many southerners would view it is rude, or as an attempt to play on anti-gay feeling among the right which, if it were truly that, was too ham-handed to work.

Watching his campaign, I think Kerry has written off everything south of the Ohio and Potomac River except Florida, anyway. He's banking on the midwest and Pennsylvania.

[Kevin]

I think Kerry's comments were acceptable in the context of the question that was asked. Mary Cheney grew up in a loving household with two conservative christian parents and she is openly and comfortably gay. I think the implication of what he was saying was a)Anyone can have a gay son or daughter. b)Mary Cheney is a successful, conservative, well adjusted woman. In that context, is gay marriage something so horrific that we must amend the Constitution to ensure it never happens. I don't think he was disrespecting Mary Cheney or her family. He was saying she is the reality of being gay in America, and recognizing that does not make the U.S. the moral equivalent of Sodom and Gomorrah

[David Blue]

baldilocks: "David Anderson: Do me a favor. Don't tell me what I know. You have no way of knowing *that* any more than Senator Kerry knows about what Mary Cheney thinks."

That kicked loose something that was annoying me that I couldn't pin down.

torchy: "How in hell would John Kerry know ..."

Absolutely right. And what I realised is, it's not one-off, they've been doing this consistently. It's their ...

Telepathy Attack!

Vice-presidential debate: John Edwards knows their most intimate family feelings!

EDWARDS: Now, as to this question, let me say first that I think the vice president and his wife love their daughter. I think they love her very much. And you can't have anything but respect for the fact that they're willing to talk about the fact that they have a gay daughter, the fact that they embrace her. It's a wonderful thing. And there are millions of parents like that who love their children, who want their children to be happy.

Third presidential debate: John Kerry knows intimate secrets of her sexual identity!

KERRY: We're all God's children, Bob. And I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was, she's being who she was born as.

Follow-up attack: Elizabeth Edwards knows a mother's secret shame!

ELIZABETH EDWARDS: It makes me really sad that that's Lynne's response. I think that it indicates a certain degree of shame with respect to her daughter's sexual preferences that I'm certain makes her daughter uncomfortable. That makes me very sad on a personal level.

Follow-up attack: get your theraputic advice from John Kerry's campaign office.

KERRY SPOKESWOMAN DEBRA DESHONG: if Lynne Cheney has a problem, it's something that she needs to work with her family,

What a sick game these people are playing on the Cheney family.

As for all that stuff about Mary Cheney being a public figure, that's all a distraction tactic. As Peak Talk pointed out here, Mary Cheney, the public person, the campaign manager, her work and her public role, was never mentioned in the debates. Nobody's interested in that, except to cite it as an excuse to go straight for the groin and play a bunch of "telepathic" mind games about Dick Cheney's family issues.

[girl]

what David just said is what pissed me off the most about the tactless comment. I can't stand when people presume to know what other people are thinking or what they would say. it was the "if you asked Mary Cheney, I think she would say.." part. how do you know what she'd say? don't speak for her.

and as for the "fair game" bullshit, why not pick on Chrissy Gephart then? she's campaigned all over the place for her father. Kerry chose to push buttons by picking on a Republican lesbian. she was an easy target and he knows it.