Back and Forth

Prometheus 6 and I are having a stimulating conversation on his blog, stemming from his link to the Crutches post. Suffice it to say, we disagree on many things. However, this discussion is forcing me to again question what I think and believe and to flesh out those things verbally. Though my posting style here is blunt and confrontational, when I’m engaging in conversation, I try to calm that aspect of my communication down (emphasis on the word ‘try’). P6 is a tough customer and pulls no punches on what he thinks and believes: an admirable trait. (Of course I would think that. :-)

One of the great things about this conversation is that it is helping both of us clear up misconceptions that we have about the other. And related to that, we’re using clear language to set forth our conclusions and the premises behind them. Also, not the least, our assumptions are being made plain to the other.

Be advised, however, this is no parlor conversation going on here. Enjoy. I am.

Comments

[P6]

I 'll also say y'all are welcome to join in, but come correct. The topic can easily be explosive.

I'm not silencing anyone, but I'm not having the explosions either.

[teal marie]

WOW and a half!
What was that about karma? Is P6 a booder?

[Phelps]

This is the sort of bullshit that drove me away from P6:

They cite you as evidence.

Is that good or bad, Juliette?

Doesn't it BOTHER you that Black-hating racist bastards see you as a fellow traveller?

Since I'm a)white and b)don't think that white people are to blame for the problems of today's black people, I am prima facia a racist in P6's eyes.

I looked through the site that he points to. I can find absolutely no evidence that the person writing that site is a "black hating racist bastard". In the World As P6 Sees It, though, a white person is a racist until proven otherwise, doubly so if they fail to properly fawn over the plight of Black America.

A long time ago, P6 wrote this:

Imagine that of every eight people you see in public spaces, six are Black. Your bosses are Black. Your kid's teachers are Black. You go to the newsstand and see Ebony and Savoy but not Time and People.

Now, imagine that roughly one third of these Black people, that's one out of every four people you encounter lets you know, through body language, shying away or even sometimes a direct statement, that they think you are a racist bastard.

These are people who don't know you and never will. But it's pretty clear—not blatantly obvious, by pretty clear—that they are uncomfortable around you. They visibly relax when you say something that indicates you're not going to invoke white privilege. A few that do know you will ask your opinion with the inflection that indicates the collective "you." A few others will occasionally squeeze their butt-cheeks tight and add a nasal twang to their voice as a sign of solidarity with you. And you know if you, even accidentally, validate those assumptions in any way you will be ostracized to some degree, even my other white people.

You with me? Really?

Good. You now have your own personal Negro. Feed it well and ask it questions once in a while.

I am that person. What seems to eat at P6 is that when he asks me questions, I don't give him the answers that he wants.

[P6]

Since I'm a)white and b)don't think that white people are to blame for the problems of today's black people, I am prima facia a racist in P6's eyes.

That's simply not true, Phelps. Here's something else I wrote long ago. And from that point until you decided to call me racist because I felt Log Cabin Republicans were foolish for pursuing a party that actively campaigns against their interests you were welcome and you know it. I told other commenters when they suggested you were racist that you weren't, you were a polemecist. Remember? I'll find that link if I have to.

You have a race problem just like everyone else in the country but it's a different one than mine. I'm not looking for an answer from you at all, Phelps. I'm just talking about the things I've learned.

[P6]

Oh, Teal, I'm a person with a little better than passing knowledge of every world religion and a couple of dead ones. And I like archaicisms and unusual turns of phrase.

[teal marie]

Thank you for answering my question, P6.
May I ask another, please? Who is the racist you speak of? The one who was made happy. I'm trying to follow this interesting debate, but I can only find out who the happy racist wasn't, so far.
BTW, this debate ... worthy of a book deal.
You might keep that in mind.

[P6]

I didn't keep the link to the post I used as an object lesson. Actually, since there was a trackback to Juliette's post...

That link I have. I'll be back later.

[P6]

Okay, it started with this post. You'll see this one on the trackback list. If you read it, you'll see Juliette's correction said he was right, she just wasn't talking about it that particular time. Actually a pretty weak "correction."

His response was, so what that wasn't what you were talking about, it still supports what I want to say.

[baldilocks]

Be patient, P6. I'll be there directly. :-)

[P6]

Oh, now that I've banned Al Barger I have all the patience in the world.

Quite a comment from a candidate for the U.S. Senate.

[baldilocks]

In the context, my first thought was that he was talking about lynchings.

[teal marie]

I thought Al Barger meant lynchings, too.

P6, you provided no evidence that racists were made happy. Your attempts to slander and shame Juliette are very bad karma! Absolutely disastrous to your fortune in this life. She doesn't accept the "gift" of your spare slander, so that gift still belongs to you.

At least you are getting some traffic out of this, Juliette is so generous thataway.

[P6]

sigh

Therese been no slander from me. And you know, I didn't ask for the link. I'm not is hard search of traffic.

Teal, I will request a bit more traffic...from you. So when you comment it has something to do with what I actually say.

[P6]

Oh, and I'm sure Juliette can speak for herself. She's done a fine job so far.

[teal marie]

Yes, she is doing a fine job. She certainly doesn't need my assistance, I'm just disgusted by your slander of someone I admire very much. It's not working in your favor, BTW, quite the contrary. Your poor karma may never recover. I'm sorry you are so unhappy. Truly sorry.

[P6]

Fortunately your judgment of me doesn't matter.

[teal marie]

Oh, it did matter for a few hours. That's enough for me. Good luck, P6! I wish you well. There's something very worthy about you, I sense it, but I haven't found it yet. Maybe I just like your nonsense.

[P6]

THIS matters...making my approach clear.

I make an effort to communicate. In the process I find out if the person I'm speaking to matters. Which is not a matter of whether I like the person or not.

[Rustmeister]

So, P6

Is there anyone you met that you didn't like that did matter?

[Al Barger]

Oh, for crying in a bucket, P6. Of COURSE I was referring to lynchings during Jim Crow when I used the phrase "swinging from the trees."

I'm sorry if my phrasing was inelegant, but it didn't occur to me that someone might take it otherwise. The point was SUPPOSED to be that I was acknowledging that black folks might have some lingering resentments or fears from the Jim Crow era.

What, you took "swinging" as some kind of monkey slam? Brother, turn that paranoia down just a notch, please. That doesn't even make sense as an accidental misinterpretation from anything else I wrote in those comments.

[teal marie]

Al Barger - sweet! Your timing is exquisite. I thank you kindly, partly for vindicating my reading comprehension skills, mostly for knocking the wind out of the slander.

[Al Barger]

This Prometheus fellow is not impressing me in terms of honesty, rationality or any form of intellectual integrity.

For starters, his first comment on this very thread rings totally untrue. "I'm not silencing anyone, but I'm not having the explosions either."

In fact, he's made a big point of publicly banning me from his site, and then being the one doing the exploding.

Now he's made TWO separate posts about banning me, making a special point of saying that he hasn't read my email and doesn't care what I said. He's just going to be mad.

Recapping, I am a "racist pig" for acknowledging that black folks were lynched and left swinging in the trees, and that this might understanably be a source of continuing resentment or angst among black people today.

What was even controversial here? I was not even being irreverant or flip in any way about how I said it, or taking it lightly. Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't see how anyone of his obvious erudition could honestly accidentally have missed my point, or taken it for insensitive.

On the other hand, I'm white, and it doesn't seem to take much more than that to raise his ire. He as much as said that he doesn't care what I said, he's just going to be mad.

Also, one of his commenters on the "banned" thread falsely claims that I addressed a woman on another site with the "c" word. This is purely factually inaccurate, and completely not anything I would do. We'll see if Prometheus is honest enough to at least correct this purely false statement.

[Al Barger]

Actually, my bad just above. The "one of his commenters" who made the false accusation about insulting a Blogcritic with the "c" word was actually Prometheus himself.

Again, Prometheus just made that claim up. There is no factual basis to it whatsoever.

[baldilocks]

Al: I understand what you're saying, and you've told your side well here.

Ultimately it's P6's to take what you're saying in good faith (or not) and decide to un-ban you (or not).

[Al Barger]

Thank you, Miss Juliette.

I'm not particularly concerned about being un-banned. Prometheus obviously doesn't appreciate me, and I have no intention or desire to inflict myself where I'm not welcome.

I don't really even that much mind the hateful comments he made about me. I would, however, appreciate it if he would withdrawal the specific factual falsehood that he wrote against me, mentioned above.

I try to engage people in conversation who are likely NOT to agree with me. I seek this out, as you don't learn so much just from talking to people who already agree with you. Sometimes this results in good conversations with new buddies, and sometimes it's just going to get me cussed. Ah, well.

[Abiola Lapite]

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"I am a "racist pig" for acknowledging that black folks were lynched and left swinging in the trees, and that this might understanably be a source of continuing resentment or angst among black people today."

Well, from my own initial take on what you had to say, you very clearly seemed to be implying that blacks were essentially savages (and I'm no left-winger by any means). If that wasn't what you meant to put across, it was *your* responsibility to make that clear, and nobody else's.

I'd definitely have banned you from my site were I in P6's shoes, and it isn't even clear to me at this point in time that your explanation of what you were trying to get across isn't something you made up after the fact to preserve your reputation.

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