It's Still Bovine in Origin

With the profound display of ignorance of the intricacies of Guard and Reserve service again proliferating, my post from a while back, “Again with this Bovine Excrement,” has been linked anew from all over and, finally, Instapundit-ed (I like that better than 'Instalanched').

Since I close the ability to comment to posts older than thirty days, feel free to comment about the renewed topic here.

Comments

[Peter]

Dubya got an Honorable Discharge. That's all I need to know about this bu, um, fertilyzer. They don't give out HDs for AWOL, no matter how well connected. Had Dubya been AWOL and used his connections to get out of it he would've gotten a General Discharge.

[secret]

Loved you post....that was beautiful! ! !

[JC]

One comment. Of the major Presidential candidates (and Presidents) this century, EVERY SINGLE ONE, except for our good buddy George W. Bush, has RELEASED THEIR MILITARY RECORDS.

These include attendance records, pay records, retirement points, income tax records, and the DD 214.

As soon as he does this, vindication is his.

[Mrs. du Toit]

JC, the majority of people who are stopped my police and asked if it would be ok to search their car, consent to it.

Is that admirable? Should everyone do it, with the explanation that to do otherwise means you have something to hide?

You can search my car when you have a warrant. Ditto on the President's service record. It's none of our business. The fact that other idiots have disclosed their personal papers and property should not contrue anything about someone who doesn't.

I feel about the President the way that Jefferson did--that the President is not a show piece to be paraded around, for all to gawk at, and peer into his private life.

Bully for him! I hope he continues to refuse to open his records.

[sandy]

Well learning to fly a jet says he had a helluva lot of military training time, he couldn't have missed too much and the dude still can operate one. At my first duty station, RAF Alconbury, UK, there was guy in my dorm who was released from active duty because he got the chance to play college basketball. The military will let you go honorablely if you have something better going on in the civilian world. I didn't know all the info pertaining to Reserve/Guard but it makes sense to me. But you know Dole tried in 96 to make an issue out of Clintons lack of service and it didn't work than, it's really a dead issue. You could mention Dean, he didn't join because he had a bad back and got a doctors excuse but than came out here to Colorado to ski and Aspen and was pouring concrete, must have been therapy huh?

[Lester Spence]

Sandy I think the current context makes the military angle (largely as it relates to patriotism) more powerful as a tool. Max Cleland out of Georgia lost limbs in Vietnam and was still gutted as being a traitor. In this context Bush's activities back in 1972 matter.

So one poster makes the excellent point that the term "AWOL" has been tossed about cavalierly. I'm willing to buy that. I disagree with Juliette on several things, but she ranks high on my integrity scale.

But questions remain, that SHOULD be raised given the use of false patriotism as a litmus test. I'm giving my answer to them (and this is NOT my area of expertise) in parentheses.

1. Is weekend duty required in the National Guard? (yes)

2. Under what circumstances can weekend duty be skipped? (many, with official ok--per Juliette)

3. Did Bush skip weekend duty? (yes)

4. How many weekends did he skip?
(one year's worth at least)

5. Are official records taken that can explain who is skipping with an ok, and who skips WITHOUT an ok? (it would make sense that there are)

6. Do those public records exist for Bush? (no)

Given the willingness of operatives to use military service (and support for military action) as a political tool, then it should ALL be opened up. If a man like Cleland gets it, I'm not exactly sure why Bush should be given a pass.

[JSAllison]

You could make the point that Air Defense Command, the folk that commanded all those Guard Fighter Interceptor Squadrons, was on a war footing for it's entire existence so this would be dodging...how, exactly? IIRC an Air Guard F102 outfit did get deployed to Saigon for air defense at one time so it wasn't exactly a given that a particular outfit wouldn't be deployed.

If I'd had my head out of my butt when I was 17 I'd have gone on to college and joined the AF to fly rather than become a tank herder in the Army. So Bush did what I've always wanted to but never did.

It's funny though, McAuliffe doesn't look like Goebbels but he's certainly got that whole Big Lie thing figured out.

[sandy]

I see where you're coming from Lester and the dead issue comment pertained to me mostly.

[baldilocks]

Thank you, Lester and back at you. More later (gotta run).

[Joe Lemyre]

Lester, Max Cleland was not "gutted as being a traitor", he was simply not re-elected to his Senate seat due to his opposition to action in Iraq. As to your six questions, by your own answers it appears that only two are really relevant: Did Bush skip duty, and are there records clarifying this point ? It is entirely possible that Bush may have skipped duty, but have no orders or other notation in his records to account for the period (one year ?) in question. In that case, releasing his records would create more questions than answers, so why would he ? Since Bush has an honorable discharge, what exactly is the point of these questions ?

And JC, perhaps you could point me to the detailed records released by every single other President and candidate this century ? I've been unable to find anything but summaries - just like the one Bush issued. Please include attendance records, pay records, retirement points, income tax records, and DD 214's. As soon as you do this, vindication is yours !

[Arnold]

Lester,

You make some very good points and for once I have to disagree with Mrs. du Toit (it doesn't happen often). We are placing trust in the President to be commander-in-chief. His military record is relevent, and the "searching my car" analogy doesn't fly.

However, in answer to #5 and #6, I was under the impression that those records were looked for but not found. I have also seen a number of posts from former guard members who said they went back and tried to find some of their service records and couldn't. My impression is that guard records aren't kept up with as rigorously as active-duty records (maybe they all get stored in that warehouse where they keep the Ark of the Covenant). I don't think he is hiding anything, I think there is nothing to hide.

But you know what? We happen to live in a democracy. At the end of the day, who's going to decide whether this is relevant or not? The voters.

Incidentally, my wife was in the Air Guard in New Orleans. (She worked on F-15's, which I think is incredibly cool and I've always been envious of it.) After we got married I was offered a job in Houston so we moved here. She was released from Guard duty with an HD, and all she had to do was tell them "I'm moving away."

[BlameBush]

I never got the DNC memo that says military service is important and draft dodging is wrong. I'm still operating off the 1992 "Bill Clinton was noble for fleeing the country during Vietnam" policy.

[dellaRovere]

I hadn't realized that National Guard requirements were so flexible...Bush sure was lucky to get such a pleasant way to serve his country

[spaceman]

Arnold, I think your right and I heard it before. Wasn't it Tariq Aziz who said and I think you've even got the quote perfect: "we aren't hiding anything. there is nothing to hide". It was so funny then.

[Arnold]

spaceman:
Ouch! Touche. :)

[Arnold]

dellaRovere:
Yeah, my wife was really lucky, too. She walked into the recruiting office and signed up. What luck! And they even paid her college tuition. I never realized she was so politically connected.

[dellaRovere]

Arnold that is nice. Did she do it during the Vietnam war and ahead of 5000 people on a waiting list? I remember it was like that then...just go in and sign up.

[HanoiNow]

With all the respect in the world for people who serve or have served in the National Guard, and thus have more natural expertise in the area of AWOL issues than I, I do think one ought to recall that the Guard today is not the Guard 30 years ago, when we were fighting in Vietnam and the draft was still on. I don't think that the current experience of Baldilocks or anyone else regarding obtaining leave from Guard duties has is the final word as to what the rules ought to have been for GWB in 1972. And the sneering cockiness which Baldilocks and others on this site display towards those with whom they disagree is precisely ths attitude, endemic among conservatives, that makes Democrats furious when we encounter it in people like Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and GWB himself - particularly because the sneeringly cocky so often turn out to be hopelessly wrong.

[Arnold]

dellaRovere:
Fair enough. It was different then, and my snarky response to your snarky comment was probably out of line. On the other hand, Bush joined the guard to fly F-102's while F-102's were being used in Vietnam. He also volunteered for duty in Vietnam but did not have enough flight hours at the time:

[Arnold]

sneering cockiness which... others on this site display towards those with whom they disagree
Guilty as charged. But I don't see any shortage of that "sneering cockiness" on the other side of the arguments either.

[dellaRovere]

Arnold, thanks for your fair minded reply. My understanding is that you are mistaken on the use of F-102's. I will try to get you a reference. My understanding is that Bush might do as his father asked Clinton to do: release his military records. (For the record, if he is concerned, whatever it is he is reluctant to reveal will absolutely NOT affect my decision on how I vote in the fall. I swear. Really!)

[dellaRovere]

So my understanding comes from
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/wh2000/stories/bush072899.htm which indicates the F-102 was being phased out when Bush volunteered. So I admit that the record I am partially basing my opinion on, is unclear. Still, if he wanted to go, my memory is that manpower then was needed.

[HanoiNow]

Hey, regarding the "Bush joined to fly F-102s and they were being phased out" point. Of all the fighter aircraft used in Vietnam, which had the least chance of getting shot down? You guessed it - the F-102. Just 1 F-102 was lost in Vietnam, compared to 282 F-105s, 192 F-4s, and 173 A-4s (John McCain's plane). Check out http://yarchive.net/mil/vietnam_air_losses.html . Probably has something to do with the fact that the F-102 was a '50s-era high-altitude interceptor built to stop slow-moving Russian nuclear bombers; it was a lousy dogfighter and had no ground-attack capabilities. Since North Vietnam had no air force to speak of, you were unlikely to get shot down in an F-102. F-105s, F-4s and A-4s got shot down 'cause they were used for ground attack and were taken out by ack-ack and SAMs.

So if it's true that GWB "joined to fly F-102s", then he had the right idea, picking that shiny supersonic coke-bottle; even if he had gone to Vietnam he'd have had to be pretty darn unlucky to get shot down. It also casts the "he volunteered to go but didn't have enough flight time" point in a different light. He volunteered to go zip along at Mach 2 and 30,000 feet, providing air superiority against an almost nonexistent enemy air force. If he'd been flying choppers, or, say, skippering fast river attack boats, that would've been a different story.

[Sharon]

Oh darn, I came to this thread late, but not too late to comment.

The President promised to release ALL of his records on Sunday with Russert. That's ALL of his military records, not just the ones that have been "scoured" (his words not mine) to the press. That's every document.

As far as I can tell, the WH didn't release the corespondence between the Guard commanders in TX and AL wondering where young George was in 73. Those documents have been all over the internet, but since they cast doubt on the administration's case, well poof, down the memory hole.

The President tried to deflect the issue of his less than perfect attendence when he implied that criticism of his conduct in the 70s somehow was a criticism of the people currently serving in the Guard today. Not true. I don't think Terry Mac or even Michael Moore was trying to denigrate Guard service.
Then again, the people serving in the Guard in Iraq haven't had the same luxury during wartime to cram their duty that the President had in the 70s.

[Mac(9th Div LRRP '68)]

Juliette..In the VN era before the lottery draft was sequentially by age (don't remember the exact system)so your date could be predicted by who else was being called in your county. Some people did look down on those who "jumped into the guards" before their draft notice came....and were loosely (and wrongly) referred to as "draft dodgers". Your points are correct..draft dodging is draft dodging and AWOL is AWOL..but many liberals (less all the time) are still under the Clinton ether and feel morally justified in any "end justifies the means" tack the take to oppose Bush.
An aside:
There were criteria for getting into the guard/reserves..marriage being one.
A guy in my community got married secretly before the planned church wedding months later to accomplish this and avoid the draft & Viet Nam...later his unit was activated & went to Viet Nam anyway.
I enjoy your thoughts, Juliette...keep it up.
Mac